Episode TRANSCRIPT:

Susie: So welcome back. This is Mr. Karl Karch and he is going to tell us his story about a whole food plant based diet and how he revitalized his life with healthier lifestyle factors. So we were just chatting and I want you to start over just a little bit about who you are and, um, what you just told me, your history, and, and then go forward.

[00:00:24] Karl: Excellent. Okay. Thank you Susie I'm a retired police officer and I spent 27 years in law enforcement and at year 22 I had a heart attack. When I had the heart attack, I, I had a lot of questions cuz I was in my mid for... well, 46. It was a week before my 47th birthday, which I think anybody would say it's too young. I don't know, maybe the times now it's not as young as people think, but for me it just was odd. I shouldn't have had a heart attack. I wasn't overweight or I didn't look overweight and I thought I was in relatively good shape. But my father had a heart attack, in two heart attacks in his 60's and then a fatal heart attack in his and I of course didn't know about the fatal heart attack at the time, but I knew he had had history.

And so I'm asking the doctors WHY. Uh, why did I have a heart attack? And then they give me the clinical and medical explanation of an artery getting blocked and, okay. Um, okay, I take that, but I wanna know, WHAT DID I DO WRONG?

You know, is it just because my father had a heart attack? Is that why I was destined to have a heart attack? And the doctors I talked to, the cardiologists I, cause I talked to several other than the one that actually, um, did an intervention on me. They just said, yeah. Um, you inherited some genes from your father apparently, and you were at a higher risk.

Okay. That still didn't answer my question. Why me? And like, I don't look like some people that I had pictured having heart attacks, you know, older and more overweight. So why me? They couldn't really explain it. But I immediately, I actually worked in a hospital for, at that time I worked for a police department in a hospital, but it was a different hospital than the one I went to for my intervention when I had my heart attack.

And I'll tell you some of the story of the actual heart attack and my experience, but, um, I get a phone call from a lady and she said she's with cardiac rehab. This was only a couple days after I get back to work. I was off work probably about a week. And actually I felt good right after the intervention. And that's as a side note, I see why people, May not feel they need to change their lifestyle because interventions and medicine can make you feel good and like, oh, nothing happened to me. But I knew, I knew that was not the case completely.

So I get this phone call about cardiac rehab and I wasn't expecting it. Nobody told me that somebody was gonna call me about it. So I just knew that I had to make some changes and I knew I'd have to talk to doctors and stuff. But anyway, I get a call and she talks about cardiac rehab, and then she talks about this, um, I forgot how she explained it, but maybe this INTENSIVE cardiac rehab does another level. And it turns out it was Ornish. And she might have said that, but that wouldn't have meant anything to me at that moment anyway.

[00:03:56] Susie: Right.

[00:03:56] Karl: But she says it's intensive, and she says, yes, you, you can't eat meat and dairy and there's a lot more to it. And I said, yes, yes. But, but she said it, studies have shown that this lifestyle that we're gonna show you at this cardiac rehab, if you choose this intensive one, studies have shown that it can stop heart disease and possibly REVERSE it. And I said, sign me up.

[00:04:26] Susie: Right.

[00:04:27] Karl: And so she literally signed me up and it was at the hospital that I worked at, which certain things fell into place. My bosses allowed me to, um, it was going to be. Two days a week for nine weeks, and each one of those days was four hours. So I went to an orientation and they explained what the rehab was gonna be, and I, I said, okay, yeah, yeah, I'm good. I, I'm ready to go.

So then we get our cohort. I think I had 10 or 12 people. In the end, only two of us graduated or finished really out of, I can't remember if it was 10 or 12, but only two of us finished. And to this day, he's younger than me. I think he's about four years younger than me. We hit it off from the get go and we became better and better friends throughout. And right now we're great friends. He lives about two hours from me and we meet a lot. He lived in Chicago, which is about hour and a half, two hours from me. And he he moved to Indiana recently. But anyway, I digress a little bit. But we're still very good friends and it's cool that we're friends cuz Yeah, having a good friend is always nice. But we're good support because

[00:05:45] Susie: Right.

[00:05:46] Karl: It's been six years and we both, it's a lifestyle, it's not a diet, it's not an exercise routine. It is a lifestyle change. Mm-hmm.

So I'm going to back up a little bit and I'm gonna start telling you, the actual heart attack and then I'll get more into my lifestyle changes. I was at a, um, it was actually our family reunion weekend. And it's a big, we get over a hundred people, between a hundred, 150 people at our family reunions throughout the country. So it's a big deal. The family reunion actually was Saturday. So Sunday my siblings and my parents and our kids, except for my kids, they were with their mother. So Sunday was a little group of us and we were at my sister's house having a cookout. And this was two miles from my house. So we're at this cookout and, and, and the reason why I wanna tell you about the cookout is because that's, I always cooked out on the grill.

[00:06:51] Susie: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:52] Karl: Beef, chicken, pork, whatever I and my brother-in-law, that's where we were going. He's the same way. I mean, we cook out throughout the year in the winter time and everything. And our winters are pretty bad, but, Right. We're able to do it. So I'm giving you a little explanation that I ate whatever I wanted and every time I cooked out, I drank. I drank beer while I cooked out, and so I'm cooking out 3, 4, 5 nights a week throughout the year.

So we're at a cookout at my brother, my sister and brother-in-law's house, and during the cookout, I start to feel a little discomfort in my back just a little bit. So I just start moving around and adjusting myself and it's still there, and so I move around a little more. I'm not saying anything to anybody. I'm kind of just kind of going off on my own and kind of moving my back. I don't think much of it other than, oh man, I twisted my back or something. Well, I'm starting to notice that my movement's not making any difference. I don't feel any change, but, so if it was a muscle or something when you moved, you would feel some change.

But I'm not putting any two and two together or anything. I'm just finding it weird, like, oh my God, I can't find the spot to feel a difference when I move. So I'm noticing that something is weird with my back. I'm just thinking back. So it's bothering me more and more the weirdness of it.

[00:08:27] Susie: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:28] Karl: But it's just a consistent discomfort. So I'm thinking, oh, this is weird. So, Being myself, which this is another component that Ornish helped me with. I don't want my problems to ever be other people's problems. I suffer in silence, or I used to suffer in silence, so I didn't want to tell anybody to ruin their fun.

So I told myself, I'm like, I'm just gonna go home and lay down and maybe do some stretches, but this is weird. So I get my car, don't say a word to anybody. I just kind of snuck out of the family cookout and two miles from my house I'm driving and while I'm driving, I'm moving still nothing, the intensity of the discomfort is kind of increasing. So I get to my house, it's slowly starting to increase. I lay down on the hard floor cuz I don't, I don't know. I'm just thinking it's a back issue. So I'm laying on the hard floor and, now the pain is getting a little more intense because I think, I don't know, again, physiologically, but maybe my worry, like since my worry is increasing, it might have, I, I, I don't know that part, but I'm worrying and the, and the discomfort's getting worse and my worry's getting worse.

So again, I don't want to make other people's problems, my problems, but I know something is wrong. And so as I'm laying on the floor, I start to feel a tingling in my arm. So now I'm thinking, oh boy, this is not a back problem. So I'm getting worried and the pain is now, kinda going into my chest and I'm just laying flat on the floor, kind of in front of in front of my front door.

So I'm starting to get scared. I dialed 9-1-1 on my cell phone, but I don't hit the call button. I'm thinking I don't want to have a false call to the, I don't wanna waste the medic's time. I'm thinking, oh my God, I don't wanna bother them. I don't wanna bother my family. So I'm just laying there with 9-1-1 programed there, and I'm just not hitting a button yet.

Then I'm like, what the heck? Now my brother lives in Georgia with his family, but they came up for the family reunion, and my brother and I are very, very close. So I text my brother. I said, "Hey man, I'm feeling some pain or something weird's going on. I'm laying on the floor. I'm about ready to call 9-1-1".

He doesn't even respond, but within maybe five minutes or so, him and my brother-in-law are at the house. And I'm laying on the floor, and as soon as they come in, then I'm like, oh my God, something's wrong. I think I'm having a heart attack. So they dial 9 1 1. They're talking and they're explaining and they're like, give them an aspirin. I end up chewing a full strength Aspirin yeah, right. But I, I chew that. And, The fire department is right on the corner of my neighborhood on a street. so they're there, the ambulance is there within minutes, and they come in, I'm still laying on the floor. It was a female medic. She hooks me up to, I guess, an EKG or something, (right, mm-hmm) and then I said, what's going on? And or no, she said, she said, oh, something's going on. I go, what do you mean something's going on? And so she just said, she goes, something's going on. We need to get you to the hospital.

So they put me on a gurney, they get me in an ambulance, and the, and the pain's increasing. I don't know if my worry has amplified it or not, but it's starting to hurt. My chest is hurting bad, my arms are tingling, going numb, I'm hurting bad. Um, I think I'm crying at this point too. But, they say, I think they said they were gonna gimme morphine or something similar to morphine. I said, no, no, no, no, no, no. Don't, cuz I'm thinking, I don't want, I, I don't like medicine or drugs. So I'm like, I don't wanna become addicted to the, I'm, I'm a strange person. Like, I go, my brain goes to different places, so I'm like, I don't want it. And they're like, "Why you're obviously in pain". And I'm like, I don't, I might become addicted. I don't know. They're like, no. They're like, don't be a martyr, you're not gonna become addicted. They gave it to me. they say what hospital? And I told 'em the one I work at, but it was way far away compared to the other one. They're like, "mm, no, we're gonna get you to the nearest hospital".

So I said, well, my insurance doesn't cover that. And they're like, don't worry about insurance right now. And they're like, plus insurance companies work around this, which they do, but they're just like, don't worry about that. So they get me to the hospital and I'm kinda loopy now because of the drugs they gave me. And I keep telling 'em the whole time in the ambulance. I'm like, I am so sorry you guys had to come out here. I said, this is nothing. And they're like, well, it's something they kind of know it's something more than what they're telling me, but they're just like, no, it's something I said, I doubt it. So we get to the hospital and, and there's people there, like medical people there, and they're like, oh, those, see those people there? They're for you. That ain't the thing you tell me. Cause I'm like, oh no, now I'm wasting a bunch of people's time. So I'm like, oh no. I'm like, oh no. So they're, they're grabbing me and they're cutting my clothes.

And the doctor says, you're having a heart attack. I said, what do you mean? He's like, I mean, you're having a heart attack. What more can I say? And I'm like I guess nothing. he was real cold, you know, I guess I'm real dumb though. what do you mean by a heart attack? so they're getting me prepped. They say, oh, we got an on-call team coming, cath lab and me working in a hospital, I'm like, oh, cath lab's not good. Heart attack's not good. So they're getting me prepared, but I'm kind of loopy because of the drugs. So they're asking me a bunch of questions and getting me prepped for, for the on-call people. So then they take me in, and then the on-call calf people, they're getting me even more prepped. They're joking with me is good because I love to joke around.

So of course I was drinking that day, right? he's asking me like, Hey, have you had, this is the, I don't know what his title is,he's like, do you drink? I said, yes. And he goes, did you drink today? I said, yes. And he said, how much did you have to drink? I said, I, I don't know. I, I probably had about six or seven beers. And he's like, oh, only about, and he was being like, sarcastic, right? He goes, oh, and he looks at some other person and he's like, oh, only six or seven beers. And I'm like, I'm not sure what I'm thinking. But I go, well, it's Sunday and it was just Coors Light . So then he's like, oh, the plot thickens, he only had six, seven beers because it's Sunday and it was just Coors Light. And I'm like, wondering what, I said, are you mocking me?

I remember these little things. And he goes, oh no, I'm not mocking you. I'm just stating the facts. You only had six or seven beers because it's Sunday and it's just Coors Light. Right. That obviously, I needed a lifestyle change.

So the doctor gets there and he repeats that to the doctor in that sarcastic tone. Like, oh yeah, this is Karl, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he only ... you know? And I'm like, oh boy.they gave me something to knock me out and then next thing I know, and I wake up and my three daughters are there in recovery. I guess. They're crying and I'm like you know, I, I, that, that, that was the moment that I would say that's the moment that changed my life, seeing them crying.

[00:16:46] Karl: And, and, so I try to reassure them cuz my oldest was still a teenager. My middle one was a teenage, this was six years ago. No, so like 20, 17 and then 12. when they were little, they always called me big tough daddy. I say, Hey, big tough daddy, you know, I'm gonna be fine. I'm gonna recover. Everything's gonna be fine. Don't cry. You know?

I stay in the hospital for another day or two, and like I said, right after that, I'm feeling fine, no pain.

And in the cath lab, I'm guessing they did a stent or ablation or something?

Well, they went in and he just did angioplasty and he said he just he, uh, used a balloon, or he sucked out the blood clot cuz there was a blood clot. And then I think he did a balloon to mash down because the plaque erupted, blood cells go there, created a blood, you know, more than I do. But that's what, that's a good explanation. You can correct me if I'm wrong. So there was a blood clot there and that's what caused the blockage. He sucked out the blood clot. He showed it to me on a gauze pad, a lot of blood for, and it's a tiny, tiny, tiny artery and I'll get to that in a second. It was so, so tiny.

So this is an old school doctor. I say old school because I guess he's old. he was a nice guy but he could not explain anything to me that I could understand, other than this is a blood clot. Okay, I get that.

I get out, I feel fine, I wanna go back to work, but I take the rest of the week off. So then I go back the following Monday. I make an appointment with my physician who, um, he was my parents' physician and mine. So he knows family history. He's a great doctor. He loves cops and he loves kind of that culture. And so he's explaining to me, he, he loves to explain any type of medical thing, with with cop analogies.

[00:18:45] Susie: Oh, good. Yeah, that's fun.

[00:18:46] Karl: It's good, but I want to expand my knowledge of things. And so it's fine that he uses cop analogies because then at least I have an understanding. And then I could ask him more questions and he could kind of open my mind more about the medical side without just a simple cop analogy. But, um,

[00:19:04] Susie: I think when medical providers can provide analogies that. Whatever patient is in front of us can understand is really where you translate the information, right.

[00:19:18] Karl: It's wonderful. And, and the fact that he loves police officers and he has a lot of police officer patients that's just a gift he has and he talked about adrenaline and the, in a, in a, uh, the trigger pull of a gun, like a light trigger pull or a heavy trigger pull. And I, I had, I had that discussion with him years ago that I did adrenaline, like I've been living my life with chronic adrenaline dumps, I guess because he said I have a light trigger pull. And so that was part of my problem. He explains things about the artery and it got blocked and he looked at me and he is like, "Hey, it's a heart attack, but for a heart attack it's the best possible scenario". it's a tiny artery on the, I guess the right side, whatever side's, the, the better side, to maybe have one on. He's like, it's all in your favor.

So now get back to where I left off before. I'm at work, I get that call. I start in a Ornish rehab. I meet my buddy. We became good friends, but Ornish was divided into four sections. It's the nutrition, it's the exercise, it's the stress management, and then it's the love and support.

Exercise I've always had an on off relationship with exercise, mostly off, but I was on off.

Nutrition. Mm. I tried but since I never was really obese or anything, I, I just figured like, Hey, I'm doing good. But I wasn't.

Stress management. That was new to me and that was a key. I didn't really understand stress management or that I needed it, but that was key.

And then the love and support. Yeah, boy. Like I said before, my not wanting my problem to become other people's problems and not letting people help me. That was part of my problem. So this whole program was extremely helpful and, um, the love and support, what that entailed was. So each thing we do, an hour of nutrition, an hour of exercise, an hour of stress management, and an hour of love and support. A total of four hours on Tuesdays, and then a four hours on Thursdays. And this lasted nine weeks, which would be 72 hours total.

So the love and support, the first day, the love and support was actually all of us from our cohort with a therapist. I knew in my mind, I said, okay. I said, and so this was the first day and it was the, and it just happened to be our last hour was gonna be the love and support for us. And sometimes it changes for different groups, but ours was exercise first, then stress management, then the nutrition, then, then the love and support. The first three parts of the day, I'm like, oh, cool, I like this. You know, the exercise, I like this exercise. Then the stress management, we started doing yoga and, and I'm like, oh, I like this. And then we did the nutrition. I said, oh boy, this is overwhelming right now but I like it.

And then we get to love and support and they said, yeah, we're gonna be in this group, in this semi-circle and we're gonna talk. And in my mind, I'm like, no, I'm not. You guys are gonna do a lot of talking. I might do some listening, but I'm not gonna do talking. I didn't say this out loud, but I said in my head, like, I'm not gonna talk. I'm not gonna talk about feelings and I'm not gonna talk. I don't know you people. I don't talk to my family and I love them. I don't talk to my best friends and I love them. You think I'm gonna talk to strangers? I don't wanna be obstinate, but I'm like, oh my God, how am I gonna pull this off? You know, to be cooperative, but not talk. That's what I'm going on in my head. Oh, Susie. By the second week I'm in there crying and telling 'em my life story. I always say this therapist, his name is Kevin, um, he cracked me real quick. I'm like, Kevin, you, you pulled the Jedi mind trick on me. How did you do this? You know, so, Um, it worked. Like,People, especially my family, my daughters, brother, sister, mom, dad. They had said, yeah, wow, you clearly have changed since all this. And I was just more open. I'm open with friends. I'm more empathetic to, to, to people going through a divorce or people going through health things.

And then the stress management part, the, um, the yoga and meditation became my favorite part.

But the exercise real quick during exercise, I said, yeah, this walking on a treadmill ain't cutting it. Like, I mean, I wasn't like super outta shape, but I'm like, I ain't walking like I need to run and I'm not a runner. I'm not a runner, but I'm like this walking, I'm just, I need to run. And they're like, oh no. I said, I feel like I can run. And they're like, if you get a doctor's note, you can run. So I go to my doctor's, I get a doctor's note. so I run and it's so funny because years later I became like, I'd come in and speak to new groups, right? And then even when it left, they got rid of the program at my hospital cuz of money, which is ridiculous. But then another hospital, about an hour away, started the program. So I started talking there. Well, I've talked to a few people since then and I introduce myself. I'm like, Hey, my name's Karl Karch. Six years ago, I went through this program. They're like, oh, you're the guy that they said was the only guy that you'll ever, ever let run on the treadmill. No, . And I just laughed. I'm like, I'm known as that, that guy. And there was this one guy, he was the only one that ever was able, allowed to run on the treadmill. And I kinda laughed. I'm like, oh my God, that's silly.

But anyway,

[00:25:20] Susie: Different people go into, you know, exercise with different fitness levels, right? Maybe you just had to up what you did to get to that more moderate level you know?

[00:25:30] Karl: Yes. And, and apparently most of these people that had heart attacks were even a less level than me. Right. I think I bashed my level of fitness. Compared to the regular population, I was probably above average fitness, but compared to certain people in the cop profession. It never hindered me in my job. I probably could have been in better shape. So that's what I compared it to. so the exercise I took to that did that well.

The nutrition that appeared overwhelming at first, like, oh my God, you gotta read labels and go grocery shopping. It's gonna be hectic. But the nutritionist or dietician that talked to us we used to joke and say, she's like a drill sergeant, cuz she was real firm, but she's wonderful. So she taught us, and then eventually it turned into second nature to me.

Right.

Her knowledge and her support and guidance was very helpful and we had to keep a diary of what we ate. And so she would look at that and she would say something like, "Oh, Karl, you ate two bananas in a day. You shouldn't like one banana's enough. You know, you're overdoing it on the, but that was along with an apple and some grapes." you know, I love bananas. She's like, oh, you're overdoing it with the fruit. I'm like, okay. And like I said, like a drill sergeant, she was firm. But very, you could have the feedback though, right? I mean, beautiful feedback. Wonderful feedback, and kept us on track. So I took to the nutrition, and that's a funny thing because of later on, well, I could talk about the nutrition now.

[00:27:09] Karl: So I took to it the no meat part, no dairy. Even though I told you my background with eating meat, it didn't, I, I, I had a heart attack and to me that meant what you, what you were doing is much fun and comfort and everything, wrong. You weren't doing the right thing. So I accepted this new whole food plant based way of eating and I knew it was a lifestyle. It wasn't a temporary diet.

Can I ask you a question though? Cuz, because you were just commenting on really it was a social and connection piece that was a big deal in your family. how, I wanted to ask you about supports, but you can keep on with the nutrition, but did you feel like you were alone on an island because this was your way of life? The cooking and the grilling and the beer drinking. Or did you have support? How did you feel in terms of community, in your family and

[00:28:03] Karl: Oh, okay. That's, that's great. So our fam, because my sister lived two miles from me and my parents live, um, they don't any longer, but they live, um, my subdivision is connected to my parents' subdivision. So it's just walking distance. And so we always had cookouts. All summer long we'd have cookouts either at my parents' house usually, or at my sister's house, or I just cooked with my little family and myself. So when I had to change, I still went to the cookouts. We socialized, but I never told, like personal stuff. Like when I was struggling with my marriage. I never told them about that. Now, they picked up on some cues, but they know me. So they knew like, we can't ask Karl because he will get defensive and like he will go into a shell and probably not show up to the next cookout for the next few weeks if we start prying into his personal life.

But so after the heart attack, um, we still had outings and I tried to explain to them like, yep, I can't eat that. I can't eat that. But I wanted to go to socialize. I'm not gonna drink beer, but I'll still go to socialize. They all were perfectly accepting.

[00:29:19] Susie: Oh, good.

[00:29:19] Karl: They had a harder time because I was still learning on certain things with the oils, to avoid the oils and all that. So there were certain things that I was still learning, and then they thought like, oh, Karl, you can have this salad and it had oil on it, and I said, no, I can't. And they're like, what? It's a salad, but I'm like, oh, the oil. So little things like that. I had to educate 'em because I was getting educated. They knew I couldn't eat the steak or the chicken or whatever

[00:29:50] Susie: I call them those little nuances.

[00:29:52] Karl: Yes. Little nuance. And they were, they were trying, they were trying to help. And my sister would call me before a cookout and say, Hey, can you eat this? Or I, I saw this recipe and, and I'm like, Nope, nope. I said, Hey, don't struggle with this. I will bring my own food. So I started to bring my own food to these cookouts. I thought that was the easiest way because I don't need them to do more work. They were willing to, and they wanted to, but I'm like, Nope, I will bring my own food because I was trying to learn to cook and put together things and the more practice I got the better. So I had no problem.

[00:30:30] Susie: At this time were you married or were you single?

[00:30:32] Karl: I was divorced at that time.

[00:30:34] Susie: Oh, okay. Yep, yep. You doing everything for yourself.

[00:30:37] Karl: Yep. Yep. And again, the divorce though. Okay, so I had my heart attack in 2016. My divorce started in 2007 and was finalized in 2010. It was a high conflict divorce. Right. And so my job, which was pretty stressful, on top of a high conflict divorce, (right) on top of somebody that in top of me who doesn't share or ask for help when I need it, it was just the worst recipe for disaster. And I wasn't eating the best and I wasn't moving enough. So everything was just going against me. Genes going against me. So everything was going against me.

But my support, they were so supportive in, in trying to, we still were able to socialize except I just adjusted a little bit. And that was perfect. And, I started dating somebody about a year and a half ago and she immediately, she loves to cook, she's, she's cooking for me now. She took my How Not to Die cookbook. She took my Forks Over Knives cookbook. She took every plant-based cookbook I had cuz they were mostly gathering dust at my house, . Cause I found a few meals that I knew how to make and I just lived off of those few meals. But, so she took those and she's cooking all kinds of things for me that are healthy and she's being influenced by my healthy patterns. It's working out very well.

[00:32:13] Susie: That's great. And yeah.

[00:32:15] Karl: So it's a lifestyle, the food part. And it's funny how people will ask me when they see that I have this healthy lifestyle now. They'll say, are you allowed to eat or can you eat? Mm-hmm. And I say, well, I'm a grown man. I could do whatever I want. I don't have to ask anybody permission to eat anything, but it's a lifestyle for me. So I choose to eat this way and I know what they mean. Can you eat that? But it's so funny the way I hear it, because so many people go on these temporary diets and they say, oh, I can't eat that, or I can't eat that when they're on a temporary diet.

And I make it clear to people, this is a lifestyle and this happens to be the nutrition component of my lifestyle. And so, Um, I don't like to say I can't. I choose because I, I'm choosing to abstain from alcohol. I'm choosing to abstain from caffeine. I'm choosing to abstain from oils and, and, and meat and dairy.

And I have a friend that we grew up together, so we're like brothers. We grew up since we were two years old, so he's my best friend and he knows how to push my buttons. So whenever we're around people and somebody asks me a question about what I can and can't eat or how I eat, he will say something like, oh, I wanna enjoy life. I'm not going to, like, I wanna enjoy my life. I'm not going to live a miserable life just to be healthy. And I, I said, listen, I'm a grown man. I could do what I want. If I was miserable, I would not be doing this. (MmHmm right) Or I'd be finding adjustments. I'm not miserable at all.

[00:34:02] Susie: Right. And you start feeling good, and you have a ton of stuff you can eat.

[00:34:09] Karl: Yes. I'm not only not miserable, I'm doing better than I was pre heart attack. I feel better. I like eating what I eat. I just, it's, it's a lifestyle that I'm extremely happy with. In some weird way, I am grateful for my heart attack because I think maybe in some bizarre way it may have extended my life. It's changed my life for the better. the food is second nature to me now. Even though I think about it every single day, I'm cognizant of it every single day, but it's not a, it's second nature, but I think about it every day, right?

[00:34:48] Susie: But we all think about food every day, right? I mean, even when I was an omnivore, I thought about food every day. What am I gonna have for breakfast? What's my lunch? What am I gonna cook for dinner? So like, you always thinking about it, right?

[00:35:01] Karl: Yeah, that's true. Cuz we have to eat. We have to eat. But the, yeah. So, yes. Okay, so that's not as weird as I thought it was.

[00:35:08] Susie: But it, but I know what you mean because it feels hard at first because it's different.

[00:35:13] Karl: Yeah, And then now it's just, I understand it, but I'm also learning more every single day. We just had a, um, a veg fest a couple weeks ago here and Alan Goldhammer spoke at it and oh my God, my friend and I are just like, I, I knew who he was. I, I see him on YouTube videos, I like him along with probably about a dozen other people that I follow every single day. Right. And his speech was even better or his talk was even better than some of the YouTube stuff I see him do. And it was just that reassurance again, not that I need reassurance, but it was just, you know, cuz I'll listen to him and, and all the people you know of too with Esselstyn and Ornish and all these people. I love watching them or reading them and it just reinforces this lifestyle is I'm on the right path and, and I know this is the way to go.

And I have my friend that's a support. I have my girlfriend, that's a support. I found Kelly in the Indiana Lifestyle Medicine Network, which is a new support. I love being a part of that. The fact that you asked me to do this it, it helps. I had another person through Kelly asked me to do a podcast with them. I'm doing a big yoga project, Yoga 5-O.

[00:36:35] Susie: Yeah. I was gonna ask you about that because I see the, um, I see the sign in the back.

[00:36:40] Karl: Yeah, so I really took to yoga and meditation. I ended up becoming a, a yoga instructor. I went through the training, became a 200 hour yoga instructor. Then I went to a week long extra training to become certified in yoga for first responders. It's a 501C3. Their name is Y FFR yoga for first responders. So I learned a lot there on how, cause my plan before I became a yoga instructor, when I saw the benefits of yoga and meditation through Ornish, I was still a police officer.

I'm like, oh boy, I'm teaching this to cops. I wanna teach 'em my whole lifestyle. But I'm like, I'll go in first with the yoga and meditation, (right) cause I see the suffering. I see the guys that got fired. I see the guys that got told to leave or they'll be fired. I saw the guys that got divorces and just did crazy things. I saw a mess throughout my career and I thought, oh my God, this yoga meditation is the key.

[00:37:45] Susie: And it, and probably really is.

[00:37:48] Karl: I think it is. And so I had this idea, I want to teach it, but I'm like, ah, I wanna get, I wanna get better and practice and learn more about it. So I, I, I had my own practice and the lady that taught me yoga through Ornish, Her and I remain good friends to this day. The organizer of Ornish, she's one of the organizers at our veg fest. I remain good friends with her to this day.

[00:38:14] Susie: You were bringing people into your circle or creating this new (new) circle of social support, right?

[00:38:22] Karl: Absolutely, and I love it. And I love them and I never used to say, I used to tell my daughters, it's weird, I'm getting a little personal, but this is, this is, this is part of it though.

My daughters, I never had a hard time telling them I loved them. It just naturally came out. It still does to this day. Every time I see them, I'm like, I love you. I love you, I love you. I just love them so much. I had a hard time telling my parents I loved them. Like when I was in high school and college and dating people, I'd see my friends tell girls they love 'em all the time. And I'm like, oh, how do you, like, I, I would feel close to a female that I'm dating sometimes they told me that they love me, but I'm just like, I can't say those words. Mm-hmm. the only time I felt comfortable saying those words were to my daughters and I thought something was wrong with me. So I guess opening up and feeling closer. I tell my friends I love them now routinely and, um, so I, which is great. Yeah.

Oh, I'm a better person than I ever was, and it's attributed to this whole lifestyle. It's it's making me healthy physically and mentally, emotionally, spiritually. Right. And I work on it every day and I do the habits that are better for that. And I think this yoga piece is huge. I also went through another training, it's called Veterans Yoga Project. Cuz I'm a veteran too, right? And then I tried to get into the police department, but it was during COVID and they said, well, no.

Well, I just had a meeting with a health and wellness person at a local police department. Not my police department that I retired from, right. I'm still working with them. I'm getting in, but I just found the key through this other person. And here's the key. She's not a police officer. She just got hired in as a social worker to take on like this wellness thing. So I took her to lunch this week and we had a talk and I presented everything to her. She's married to a police officer, which helps, but she's a champion of what I wanna do. We speak the same language as far as health and wellness right. But she knows that I have that police officer piece to where cuz she's like, yeah, police officers are having a hard time accepting me. And I said, police are the worst audience.

They're so bad at trying to get help because they don't, I'm one of those guys, like, I'm not gonna talk to this therapist or shrink or whatever. I don't trust them. They're gonna tell the department what I say, or they're gonna compare me to that accountant that has trouble at home and that has trouble with their kids. They're not gonna understand what I see on a daily basis So we're all afraid of that. But, she's like, oh my God, this is a perfect storm. I'm your champion, I'm gonna bring you in. But you have the legitimacy of being a police officer, so this is gonna work. And so we're working on that.

So I'm gonna bring yoga into this police department and, um, I mean, she's bringing me in. She's like, yes, we're bringing you in and you are gonna speak to these guys and you're gonna do yoga with these guys. And she goes, it's up to you on, How well you do it and whether they take to it. And I'm said, Hey, that part's no problem. I got that taken care of. So. Right, right. Yeah. So I'm excited about that part. the whole lifestyle helps me, and I want to share that. I feel like I need to share this with people, but I'm not the preachy type. Right, right. But I do want to share this with everybody, but especially my brothers and sisters that are in the police profession, because if the police aren't well, the community is not gonna be well.

Just like the old adage with the, um, the, the oxygen mask coming down from an airplane. You take yours first before you help the ones that can't help themselves. And I think it's the same thing in law enforcement. We have to be healthy physically, emotionally and mentally before we could help the community. And if we're not healthy, well, we see it in the news, what the outcome is. We see it in the news every day.

[00:42:53] Susie: The yoga, meditation, breath work, all of that stuff helps to build resiliency of your nervous system. So then when you bump up against stress or you have that high stress job, you're just, your set point is lower, so you're not as reactive, you're more empathetic. And so all of that would be, and think about the reaction you get from people you're trying to help. Right. If you're more centered and empathetic, the less reactive they're going to be. Right?

[00:43:24] Karl: Absolutely. Like you can teach it to cops. that's my spiel right there. You probably said it better than I say it, but you're exactly right. I'm gonna explain to them about, responding rather than reacting. Yeah. Now in policing, you have to react. If it's a a, a shooter, don't shoot. There are points you gotta react, but 99% of the job you need to respond. You need to take that pause, and you need to know how to regulate your autonomic nervous system to go from the sympathetic to the parasympathetic.

So cops are always jacked up because they're on hot calls. And these calls, if it's a domestic argument, if it's a fight, if it's a car chase or uh, a serious hot call, we need to know how to regulate, bring our parasympathetic nervous system into play. And again, like I said, you explain it better. If we are centered, we are gonna handle situations because those people that we're dealing with are hot too. Right. But if we're able to keep things calm and centered, we're not gonna agitate the problem. Right? Like, like they come off hot and we come off hot and we're gonna have the last word in this unfortunately or Right. Fortunately, unfortunately, whatever. But if we don't need to resort to that and we're centered and bring them down, the society is better off. So I want to help police officers to stay out of the news, right. And stay out of the morgue, and stay out divorce court and stay out of the chief's office.

So I want to bring that to police. And while I'm doing that, a natural offshoot is going to be my lifestyle. Right. Because I'm going to tell them my story because they need to hear my story because it could be them. Right. But then they naturally are going to hear what I do physically. Like I never been a runner. Mm-hmm. , I participated in sports in high school, and then I got on the police department. You gotta be in somewhat physical shape. I started running after my heart attack. I run up to half marathons now. Wow. For relatively decent time. I could do a half marathon in under two hours, which I think is okay.

My whole basement, it's a finished basement that is a gym. It's like a, a bougie gym. Right. . It's nice. My lifestyle is, It's almost like a, a second job of mine. Cause it's something I work on every single day. I work on self care. I, I, I practice yoga every day, I practice meditation. I eat healthy every day. I try to find new ways to eat healthier. Um, I exercise, I find new ways of exercise. I talk to people about new ways of I, I I, I look at these experts and see new ways of, um, of doing certain exercises or getting the benefits outta sleep, or getting the benefits outta certain breathing techniques.

Opening myself up and being more empathetic of, of people in their stories and their situations in life. Sharing, opening up and sharing with people, being a better listener with people. I, I've changed all, all those things I was deficient in.

[00:46:44] Susie: It's amazing though.

[00:46:45] Karl: Yeah. I'm not an expert in it, but every day I try to learn more and be better.

[00:46:51] Susie: I actually think that it, it helps even more so when somebody like yourself is being of service and I find when people have such good results, they feel so good, they want to share it and be of service to somebody else. And it's almost, um, more impactful when it comes from someone like you than from a medical provider saying, this is what I think you should do or consider, because what connects people is stories, right? Yes. The emotions are what bring people together. That's ultimately really what we're all you know, kind of wired up for.

[00:47:27] Karl: You're right. Stories are what connect with people. But the nice thing is, is because the, the experts like you that when somebody hears from a practitioner, an expert in the medical field, it may not click, but it's still there somewhere. So an example would be like me telling my story and then people relating to it because it's a story, but it's starting to click what their doctor has been telling them. Now it comes together, right? They're like, they're connecting that, oh my god, my doctor was right. And, and so it connects. I feel like I'm like an adjunct, sort of like I'm helping connect possibly what they're already being told. But like you said, I'm telling a story that they can relate to.

[00:48:20] Susie: Absolutely. Especially in that law enforcement world, and I, I understand a little bit of that. I started my nursing career in an icu, which was very intense. And I even remember somebody saying to me, how, how are we gonna know when you're in trouble? Cause I was always like, I'm not asking for help and I got it. But you know, you do have to work as a team sometimes too. I do have a couple of questions for you. Okay. One is, did your lifestyle rub off on your family at all?

[00:48:48] Karl: Oh my God, that's perfect question. Okay, so I have a brother and two sisters and all three of 'em are married. Okay. So my daughters my oldest daughter, she started eating vegetarian before I had my heart attack. And she started exercising on and off pretty decently. But once I had my heart attack, it sorta let her know, like it rubbed off on her that okay, she was doing some good habits off and on, but mm, I need to be more off and on. So it rubbed off positively on her just to something she was doing, but not consistently enough. This kind of gave her the impression like, Ooh, my other two daughters, they, they move their bodies more exercising and walking and they know the importance of, mm. I'll walk here instead of drive, or I'll take the stairs instead of elevators. And it's because of what they've seen me do. Mm-hmm.

food wise, they make better choices. I, I haven't forced anything on them. Right. I don't push anything on them. I may mention some things a little bit, but they're making better food choices just because of what they see and what they've heard. So it's rubbed off on them.

My brother and two sisters, I've told them a couple times, again, I don't wanna preach, but I said, okay, dad had his heart attacks. He died of a heart attack. So that upped our percentages that were at a higher risk. Oh, guess what? Kiddos, your brother just had a heart attack too, so that increases your, your odds of something even more. So they're trying. They've tried to improve their lifestyle. They ask me questions like, Hey, but then they flat out tell me, and my dad said this before he died. They all say what you're doing is a little extreme. We think it could be toned on a little bit. I said no, and this isn't an original thought, but I said no what was extreme is when they had to go in through my thigh and do angioplasty and bust up a blood clot and suck it out and do this, to me that's extreme. Not eating certain foods or moving more . And again, I don't expect them to take on what I'm doing, but they've all been influenced by it.

And then this woman I'm dating, this is all new to her, but she took to it like she didn't have to. And I've never told her. I said, well, when we go out to eat, you can eat what you want. No, she makes healthier choices. She'll cook some things for herself sometimes, but most of the time she cooks for both of us. And it's all healthy stuff out of whole food plant based.

[00:51:45] Susie: Well those are all the ripple effects that go out. Right.

[00:51:49] Karl: Yeah. And, and so they've been influenced. I have people at work that ask me questions. They're like, Hey, I heard you're the healthy guy, . Okay,

[00:52:00] Susie: so what are you doing now? Where are you working?

[00:52:02] Karl: Well, I thought I was retired, but my youngest daughter picked, instead of a state college, she picked a private St. Mary's by Notre Dame. so I had to come outta retirement to get a job, . So I'm actually working somewhat in the field. I never wanted to get into law enforcement again. Um, 27 years. I, I love it and I wanted to help others, but I wanted to do something a little different. But I'm just so tied to the criminal justice field. So I'm working in criminal or, uh, community corrections. Oh. I'm a supervisor for case managers. So I guess my empathy and some of these other tools that I've developed help in this job.

Being a supervisor and helping them supervise people that are in the program for community corrections. But a lot of 'em are younger than me, the people that work for me. When they ask me questions, when they say, oh, you're the the health guy, I am happy to tell them because, and again, I don't preach, but I'll tell them my story.

And then I said A lot of it were, were my habits in my twenties and thirties that brought me to that. And I tell my daughters that too, and I tell any young people that wanna hear my story is that it was the habits I developed in my twenties and thirties that brought me to where I was. So if you could develop better habits early on in your life, you're probably gonna have better outcomes than me.

But it's never too late either. So if I'm talking to a 65 year old or a 70 year old, and if they're willing to listen, They still can make changes in their life that could extend their lives or make their lives live these, their later years, live them better, have better quality of life.

[00:53:45] Susie: We have a Synergy or Ornish program here in my town as well in Florida. And I went for a, um, they invited some people from the community to talk about the program, which I had already known a little bit about it, but there was three people that came in to tell their stories. And one was an 85 year old man who said he hadn't felt that good in 50 years.

[00:54:06] Karl: Oh my. See?

[00:54:08] Susie: So yeah, it can be done. You know, when you talk to older folks, um, and they say, well, I'm too old. It's not true.

[00:54:16] Karl: No, it's not true. No.

[00:54:18] Susie: I do have a question since we're coming up on holiday season. It's 2022 right now. We're coming up on the holidays. if you can remember back as you were making changes, how did you get through the holidays when you were making this change?

[00:54:34] Karl: That's a great question. When we were going through the nutrition part of Ornish, that was one thing that they tried to prepare us for and they gave us some ideas, some recipes, and they also told us that, um, you can bring your own dishes maybe. So the first Thanksgiving after my heart attack I just brought my own food, my own meal to my sister's house. Cuz I didn't know what else to do. She tried, she called me and asked me, Hey, you know, we're gonna have this, this, and this, which is traditional. And she's like, can I make this for you? Or whatever. I said, you know what, I'm, I'm bringing my own. So I brought my own. And then Christmas, the same thing. One year I tried, uh, vegan Turkey loaf thing. Mm-hmm. . Cause I thought like, Ooh, I wanna fit in and eat similarly to what they're eating. That was a mistake cuz it has high fat and you know, that's something I need to stay away from. So I quickly thought I was alright the year before when I ate my own thing that had nothing to do with the normal Thanksgiving meal. So I'm like, it's just food. After that I started just bringing my own dishes to people's houses. And I like that way better cuz I'm not inconveniencing them. If they happen to have a salad or something, yes I'll eat that, but I'm not going to even tell them. So, made it through all those years and then, um, I started just hosting my daughters just instead of us going, cuz my dad died a few years ago and after he died and my mom was diagnosed with dementia, our big Thanksgiving and Christmases kind of died off.

I order a traditional Thanksgiving dinner from Whole Foods for my daughter and whatever friends they bring over. I know it's kind of hypocritical, but I just, I don't want to push too much what I do, I'm not gonna have some totally complete whole food, plant based meal. And then maybe them not be having a good experience.

[00:56:58] Susie: Mm-hmm. , which I think is a decent compromise. When you listen to folks like Dr. Goldhammer who is full throttle, s o s, why put anything else in your mouth? I can see that side, but I can also understand and appreciate the majority of people are trying to make slow, steady changes. So if you can also incorporate what you do nutritionally with what they know, over time, that's gonna make those ripple effects down the line.

[00:57:29] Karl: Yes. I, I love how you said slow and steady and I think I had to go, um, I had to go in feet first. Mm-hmm. because of what happened to me. Right. But, My daughters and everyone else, they have a choice and I'm not gonna try to force anything. So, so we have that traditional there and then I have my own little side meal myself.

I anticipate maybe coming up that between me and my friend, maybe we will within the next year or two just cook a complete whole food, plant based Thanksgiving meal. But it, it goes along with that, you said the, the slow and steady. So maybe within a year or two years, that's where we'll be, but I let other people go at their own pace and take what they see from me and, and then

[00:58:22] Susie: Well, and you're modeling, you're modeling for other people. You're a role model. Right? So they can see what you're doing and might be, you know, would be interested. And I think that approach of not being pushy is what's gonna draw people to you to ask questions. But also being open about it when they ask you questions, which it sounds like you are now, so that's great.

[00:58:43] Karl: Yeah, absolutely. Another little side thing that has helped me with lifestyle, and I haven't seen it fit into any lifestyle medicine thing, but to me it's an added component. I started studying stoic philosophy a few years ago right before my heart attack. I started to look into it and after my heart attack, it fits, um, with the, maybe the stress. It fits with everything. Cuz it's a, when I say philosophy, it's not like, oh, sitting in a classroom at a college campus and debating this is practical philosophy. It's 2000 years old, but it's practical and you live it, you don't talk about it.

[00:59:29] Susie: Mm-hmm.

[00:59:29] Karl: So if you ever get a chance to look at stoic philosophy, and the three main philosophers that I read about are Marcus Aureus, Epictitus, and um, Seneca. Those are the three main ones. There's a guy named Ryan Holidy. He's a young 30 something year old prodigy. He writes a lot of books about stoic philosophy, but he writes some in layperson's languages and he tells stories and he uses stories from people we know, right?

John F. Kennedy, queen Elizabeth, babe Ruth, Ty cop, he'll use stories and he'll show that what they were doing. They might not have known it, but they were practicing stoicism. So, and like you said, when you hear stories and see stories, we're able to connect. And you may not say like, oh, that's stoic philosophy, but that's kind of where it comes from and, right. Interesting. I'll have to look at that. Well, cognitive behavioral therapy. Yes. Are you familiar with that at all? Yeah. Yep. Kind of gets its roots from stoic philosophy. Oh. Or, um, Victor Frankel with uhhuh. Um, yep. I don't think he might have intentionally, but some of the stuff he talks about and believes comes from, and maybe it was kind of like, it goes from stoic philosophy, but then other people learn it and then Victor Frankel learned from somebody else. But originally a lot of the foundation from the stuff comes from stoic philosophy, but that interesting. But that helps me with self care and, and, and my life. So, yeah.

[01:01:06] Susie: I'm gonna look that up. I know we've been talking for a little bit, but I wanna ask you something else, which you touched on some, but what were some of the biggest challenges or roadblocks and how did you overcome them or did you have backslides and how did you not get derailed? How did you stay the course?

[01:01:25] Karl: Ooh, that's a great question. Um, food-wise, because we eat every single day, we have to eat to live. That became so routine. That's been the, the strongest one that I've been consistent on. Now I've never back slid, but are there times where I've had a beer? Yep. I've never had meat. My parents used to vacation or winter in Mexico every year. We went there as a whole group the year before my dad died, all the kids and grandkids. I had a couple, um, fish tacos.

So, um, I made sure they weren't fried fish or cook oil, but I'm just, but I don't like to use the mentality like, oh, I'm on vacation, or it's a holiday. Yeah, your body doesn't care. , right. Your clogged arteries aren't gonna take a break cuz it's a, so I don't use that excuse. I just felt like I'm going to eat this and I'm going to have a beer. Right. And I am disciplined enough to where it's not gonna be a slippery slope. And it wasn't. I knew that I was disciplined enough at that point to where it didn't become a problem. Right. So I've never had a backslide, but I've had those little moments.

Drop exercise, oh boy, I had such a good, good, good, good thing going. And then this year, um, I, I fell off a ladder doing something stupid. I fell off a ladder and bruised my ribs. Oh, and, it was inconvenient to run into exercise. And then I tweaked my back trying to do a dead deadlift. And so those were back to back. And then I had a, a problem with the tooth and an infection, so it was back to, back to, and then the tooth infection just affected me. Like, I couldn't exercise, I didn't wanna run. So I went several months without exercise. But I'm back into it though. I got back into it. Um, the stoicism is a big part of what helped me get back into it. You know, talking about don't worry about the things you can't control. Only focuses on the things you can't control.

Well, I couldn't control my tooth really once it happened. I couldn't control my bruised ribs once they were bruised. But once they healed and once I was ready, I can control whether I started exercising again. So I got back in the exercise, but I did have a big stretch where I fell off that the yoga, I tried to be consistent with yoga through that period.

It wasn't where I wanted to be, but the meditation was pretty much on point. The yoga was an acceptable version, I guess, but I'm back to where I wanted to be back to there. So, yoga, stress management. Every day I do have, not every day, but I always have some back steps with, I'm human, so I get stressed over things, but I'm able to see it and, and not let it go too far. So I'm like, okay, so I'll do the breathing techniques and then I practice these stoic, I just remember the stoic quotes. Mm-hmm. that bring me back. One of 'em is amor fate. It's Latin that basically says, love your fate. Yeah. If something, okay,

[01:05:05] Susie: I just heard someone talk about that the other day. Mm-hmm.

[01:05:08] Karl: Yeah. So if something happens, you can't sit there and, uh, is me, this stinks. This, this threw me off my thing. You have to love it. Well, you, you accept. You could build from it. You could even love it. Like, nope, this is what was supposed to happen. And now I go from there. That has really helped me. And then there's another one called Memento mori -meditate or remember you will die one day . Right? And these things keep me in check on when I do face some struggles, whether they're my own personal struggles or they're my daughter's struggles, which I take on my daughter struggles, but the remember you'll die. Just that phrase keeps me thinking about how to, oh, love people. Be more empathetic because we're all gonna die someday. Enjoy this moment and then love your fate. It happened, right? We have to deal with it. So just a couple little phrases bring me back into check. And, well, you know,

[01:06:14] Susie: one thing you said was key was that, um, you didn't say it this way, but it's, what I took from it is that you recognize it quicker. You're quick to recognize and then you engage whatever tool you need to get you back to your center or that wholeness or, you know, whatever you need to keep going forward.

[01:06:35] Karl: Yeah. See, you say it much more eloquently than .

[01:06:38] Susie: I wouldn't say that, but that's what it sounds like to me.

[01:06:42] Karl: I'm able to recognize it and I'm able to deal with it in a awareness, in a he awareness. Speaking on a side note, awareness is my first theme of my first yoga class that I teach. My introduction, the theme is awareness, and I talk about awareness throughout the yoga practice and as we're going through the breath work and the, and the yoga poses I am talking about awareness and the importance of awareness just as a human and as a police officer. So it's funny that you mentioned awareness, so mm-hmm. . Yeah, right?

[01:07:18] Susie: A lot of us kind of go through our days and weeks and years on autopilot, you know? So having that awareness, I think is the first step. That is a first thing no matter what you're doing.

[01:07:32] Karl: So, absolutely. That's why yeah, I like to have that as my introduction is, um, cuz you start with awareness and then you build from there.

[01:07:40] Susie: There's one more I want to ask you if you don't mind. So, when you first went in and you were having your heart attack and they were telling you, you know, the cath lab is always a lot of ruckus and fun but you know, they were talking, oh, just six or seven beers. What was your perception of your lifestyle? Your perception of your lifestyle before the heart attack was, this is what is normal, this is what people do, or what would you say?

[01:08:06] Karl: Because yeah, before the heart attack, my peer groups and my family, yeah. We drank and cooked out. We ate whatever we wanted to eat, and we, that's how we socialize by drinking. Mm-hmm. . And we, we almost made a joke about, um, like having a beer gut, but just not my family. Guys at work, you know, they're in their forties and they, they kind of joke about having a beer gut or they joke about being outta shape or having a dad bod, or, but I think it's a human, it's the human condition to where we, rather than face, The fact and do the hard work to change.

It's easier to use humor, right and say, ah, I'm 40, of course I have a dad bod, I'm 40. Of course I have a beer gut. You know, it doesn't have to be that way. But, but my peer group, the people I worked around, obviously some did better than us, right? In some areas, like they may do good with the physical part, but they're bad with the other parts.

But so it, it was a way of life. And so when I'm hearing that, at the time I was hearing the, oh, I knew they were mocking me and I knew in a fun way, like I, I, trust me, my sense of humor, I'm like, oh my God, that is kind of funny, the way they were mocking me about my drinking. But I knew that they're correct. They're the normal person that thinks like, oh my God, this guy thinks drinking six to eight beers on a Sunday is okay. Mm-hmm. , uh, you just normalized it. Uhhuh , right? Like, no, that, that is wrong. And, um, they're right to think that that's kind of funny that this guy thinks it's right. And ironically, he's the one in the cath lab being worked on and he thinks it's, you know, it's all bizarre. But it all clicked. There was no resistance in me knowing I needed a lifestyle change.

[01:10:17] Susie: Which is interesting you say that because what I thought about during this conversation is that you must have had, even underneath somewhere, that growth mindset. Because a lot of times when I talk to clients or patients there is a lot of resistance, but I say to them, well, I'm just gonna plant a little seed and we'll just water it along the way. You know? Yeah. People don't like different than they've been doing. Sometimes it takes a heart attack or a stroke or something to kind of, you know, kickstart you but it doesn't have to.

[01:10:50] Karl: It doesn't have to. And that's what I tell people. It happened to me. I learned the hard way. I don't want this to happen to you. Right. And we had, like I said, I think it was 10 or 12 people in our group for many different reasons. People dropped off like flies. They just couldn't do it. You know, the first day one guy says, Hey, when can we start drinking milk And eating meat? And they said, never. And he says, what? And he didn't show up again. And then another guy, he told us early on, oh my God, I'm addicted to Chick-fil-A and it's my struggle. And he would come in and say, oh my God, I drive by a Chick-fil-A and I just wanna turn in.

And then one day he said, I have to admit, yesterday I had Chick-fil-A. And you know, they're like, that's okay. You know, Dean Ornish says we all will have these just be better the next day. He never showed up again, that guy, right? And then other people, one lady, she couldn't like alcohol. She just like, oh no, I like to drink too much. And then she felt guilty and didn't wanna be a part of us. And so people fell off for whatever reason. They're like, this is hard. And it is.

[01:11:57] Susie: It can be. Yeah, it can be. But it's good to have that community though. And I'm grateful that you spent this time with me. I thank you so much for doing that. How can people, um, like are you on any social media? Like if they wanted to connect with you?

[01:12:11] Karl: I'm on social media. I don't know how to use social media. Right. I'm learning myself and, I don't know how to, uh, leverage it. I'm on LinkedIn. I think LinkedIn has the most, um, I engage the most because I follow a lot of different people in the health and wellness self care space. Right, right. And I will comment on their stuff. So, LinkedIn's a good one. Instagram is probably a distant second. Mm-hmm. , um, and it's just my name, Karl Karch.

Mm-hmm. . I'll put it in the show notes.

I need to start leveraging it and maybe start preaching a little bit about, at least about yoga and how it's how helpful and how I'm a teacher.

[01:12:53] Susie: Just think about how many law enforcement people there are in the world. There are, at least in our country, right? Yeah. That need what you wanna do.

[01:13:05] Karl: I know. Yes. Yes. And I'm like, I, I, I want to get out there and help as many of 'em as I can. I have a website. There's not a ton of information its yogafive-0.com

[01:13:16] Susie: and it's spelled like you have it in the background there. F i v e zero Yep. Dot com.

[01:13:24] Karl: There's not a ton of information on there. Right now I'm working with the web developer, um, who's doing this pro bono, he's a retired police officer that, uh, taught himself how to code and he's killing it as a web developer.

[01:13:41] Susie: But this is the thing. Think about how much you want to help other people now. He probably also wants to help people. Right. So some, and I have a hard time asking for help too, like that, but sometimes you find those people that you just know, that you know you're gonna pay it forward or they're gonna pay it forward and you can let him help you.

[01:14:03] Karl: Yeah. And by him helping me, and by me helping others, so many people get helped and vicariously through him. He's the one helping them.

[01:14:11] Susie: That's right. It's all those ripples. So, um, you know, I'm one to talk, but I need, I need the same , listen to myself,

[01:14:20] Karl: but we all, we all need work. Like we all are a work in progress.

Right. So True. Okay, well thank you so much. Anything else before we go that you wanna share with people?

I don't think I have anything more, but I just wanna thank you for inviting me and giving me this platform and I appreciate everything you do because it's people like you that are giving us the information we need. Right. And you're a, um, subject matter expert, so you know what you're talking about. You're giving us the information. It's just we don't always listen.

[01:14:59] Susie: No, I, I I am well aware , but the, that's why we need more people like you sharing stories. Yeah. You know, I mean, I have my own stories, but people also have their own, which can help other people. So to just be able to share those stories, you know,

[01:15:15] Karl: So I like this community. I like the fact that, Kelly brought us two together to do this. Mm-hmm. . And that's what I found. I found this whole community is so helpful and so genuine. Yes. Genuine. I love that. And wanting to help each other and share information. So I love that I'm getting in here and, and, navigating and meeting new people that we all want the same thing basically. Right, right. So thank you so much.

[01:15:43] Susie: You're welcome.